HMGforum.com

Rathinagiri wrote:Friends,

Many times Pablo asked about rules. I am (also) not for any rules. Because, when you start making rules, they are endless. Rules will have sub rules and they have exceptions also. Then there will be exceptions to exceptions.

What can not be done by rules, can be done by kind requests.

+1

Despite language thing, there is something much more serious here... I've respectfully posted an idea and I've got insulted by the forum moderator because that...

Definitively, we have a problem...

Gentlemen,

It is appalling to see http://www.hmgforum.com in disarray. For the newbie, it won't be a good impression also. On the contrary to the both sides of the arguments I'd prefer to see the positive side. Like what Roberto says, we may have a different section for each non-English speakers. However in doing so, when someone search for a particular keyword from Google or Yahoo, chances are that those topics in the non-English section will be ignored by the search engine. It is also true that more often, the translation of a particular dialect/language into English lost its essence or perhaps sometimes sounds offending and rude. There are also those who asked questions in English but the grammar construct is offending because its not their native language and most probably they didn't intended to sound that way either.

For those who are using translation as a rule of thumb, always translate it in English first, then to your own language. It is not a perfect translation so you can expect that it is much more head scratching to decipher what it really meant. Yep, its true we have a language barrier that I believed all of us is aware of. We have also written arguments and counter arguments and guessed what man? We argue for more information and or the desire to be part of the discussion or at least to know what is the real deal.

HMG trascends our language barrier but almost all the time its not enough. Sometimes we needed also to share thoughts and explanation regarding a particular issue or subject. If our desire is to help and assist fellow members and future new members it would be best to hold our horses and let's consider all the options already proposed in the previous postings. The question now is how willing are we to work for the common good of everyone? In one way or the other we do refer to our selves as a "programmer", literally a solutions provider so I believed as such we may have an accord in no time like a true gentleman. So now shall we do it again and pick ourselves together and try one more time?

It is easy to make the problem more difficult to solve it

I think there is no problem, being as it is now, who will understand. Google translate and similar services are not perfect but they help, the problem is when somebody misspell a word, and then all change the meaning, but it is what it is, let's move on

I suggest that the issue is closed, and at the end of a joke

When two strangers tell jokes sweetest laugh translator

Hi Friends:

Seems that and old topic that many of us agree was finished, comes again for displeasure of lots of members.-
IMHO Pablo you are wrong.-
Me and some other members speaks in spanish because that is our natural language.-
The question - as you mention - is not forcing to anybody to be considered as 'a lazy', because you choose to write your opinions in your (by the way an mine) language.-
I don't speak or write languages like Esgici's one, Rathi's, or Mol.-
As english is the most extended language, i think there is no more place to cotinuig discussing about this topic.-
You must understand that most user's accept english as this forum official language.-
If you or any other member want to exchange ideas or comments with someone in his language, use PM, but when the discussion or topic is public (i mean for the interest of all members), my opinion is: write twice (first in english for everyone and afterwards in your language for somebody special).-
The effort for you, me and other not spoken naturally english, is the same as for Esgici, Rathi, Mol, and so one.-
It's true that sometimes it's difficult to express our ideas on foreing language, but, pretend that others make the effort to understand us is not reasonable.- We must make the effort to be understand by other.- Many time this will be too difficult, although we must insist again and again.-
You are particulary sensible to Esgicis opinions, or Mol, or RL; but i don't think they have any intention to devaluate your ideas.-
Perhaps you must use the pause (as on old tape recorder) and critically reflect about this.-
As intelligently said Rathy: all of this is a childish.
With regards. Eduardo

Roberto Lopez wrote:I've got insulted by the forum moderator because that...

Dear Roberto,

I did not insulted to you and neither body else. I've saw many imprudences ocurring here commited by the same person several times. And I've also see that even been shown what all things was wrong, nobody took any measure or even made any comments about. All seems it's a conspiration to break me down as moderator. Seeing that, I've decided to no more answer any provocations from anybody. At this meantime upto you write that about moderator, I wish to calm down the situation created by the different opinions and preferred to keep me in silent in view in what's be decided to join again the different cultures, languages, people and ideas.

I wil try to answer every question and acusations made directed to me. I thanked to you when show us the wikipedia concepts about moderator responsibilities. I have nothing to disagree with that text, that was very known by me for really long time. This is not my first time acting as moderator. The work of the moderator is not easy and let alone when the forum does not have defined rules. And I will try to explain again why I'm thinking like that.

As typical in this case of non-English languages is used by members. If we have in our "rules list for HMG forum" something like this:

• Is strictely required to every members to write ever in English. The official language in all this forum is in English.
• Is accepted to write a non-English text since the message is been due translated to English.
• Any languages is accepted. Subject to not been responded by not being in English.
• Only will be accepted the specific language in each forum in the corresponding language. Not other language will be allowed.

I prepared this above list just now, but it could be any others with much relevant importance. All these items are optionals to be approved by administrator. This is my opinion as it should be regarding to rules.

But the main problem is the administrator doens't want any rules at all. This is what I have understood for many messages from Rathi which all of us we will have to accept because he is the administrator. Nobody should ignore his authority, this is my view.

Regarding your missunderstood about:

Roberto Lopez wrote:

Pablo César wrote: <...>
Nada de eso obtuve respuesta, eso porque creo que es pura vanidad, puro comodismo, algun

celos por detrás, alguna envidia ? -> talvez !

Translation of underlined words:

vanidad = vanity
'comodismo' = laziness
celos = jealousy
envidia = envy

vanity?... laziness? ... jealousy?... envy?

This is for me?

Seriously?

A moderator should DELETE this kind of messages, not to write them

PS: I'm really laughing... thanks for that

All you translated specific words like: vanity?... laziness? ... jealousy?... envy?
Obviously I was NOT referring to you. I was referring to the main situation created a long time for many topics with this same matter and always become as conflict. Conflict in my concern is because there is not yet a real solution. The solution given from Mr. Rathinagiri was "FREE COMMUNICATION", this was his own words and if he thinks like this we should respect and proceed with that.

But the problem is not solved yet. Not me only, who wants a reconciliation of this conflict. This is discussions in public gives place to hear everybody, correct ? So there are many divergencies but we have to conciliate and decide what it's the best way and create a rule for that. To make the rule just to be published for everyone to know that's the way for behaviour and also for moderation proposes. Otherwise we will have time by time the same claim (in this time by the same group). And let me say something personal:

This group lets call as "English speaker", let me give name just to identify oposite cases and please not confuse with any kind of racism or any kind of discrimination. Every body, every languages, any race we have the same right to be equal in rights and duties.

So this group "English speaker", it's easy to read without any difficulties in English as official language that suposed to be stablished here as main language. Probably is easier for Rathinagiri because India has English as official languages and his country there are many other languages as himself already explain to us and is very common in his mind to accept English as official language. This is one important mind to be considered but of course is not that the problem. Others members who are complaining are most are coming from Europe. Well nobody can compare Europe with latin american in English culture I mean. Obsviously in Europe speak more English than here in this part of the world.

The main problem about English, you know very well Roberto as I said to you in spanish, that in our region, referring south America, English very few person can master, can use English fluidly and common in their use. This is due a very long question that envolves many reasons: different culture, politic matters, much poverty, so on... You as southern american you will understand what I mean. Difficult situation for forcing someone to use a language that can not successfully use.

This situation was manifested for long time ago before my join at this community. This is because is very difficult situation, as I already mentioned: many people from different places it is obvious that many languages.

But the main problem for this claiming that "English speaker" don't want to accept our difficulties and they made in public, not rules here and everybody says what they want. To say what they want is not problem for me, the only thing that I do not accept is when they are no gentle in their words, they laugh about my moderation actions and more when they are excited or be rude with me and with others members.

It's very difficult to work without guide list or any rules to define what is allowed and what is not. And worst is quite imposible to ride moderations when your actions are extra limited. Here I can not block topics when discussions are taking a excited situation, I can not delete messages (as you have mentioned), I can not call any advising or answer provocations. When I did, accused me of re-edit member's messages also have call me attention when I tried to avoiding discussing and bad behaviour made direct to me and I placed to moderations section. All these happend at time ago, It was highlighted with "FREE COMMUNICATION" and I passed as bad person in this history. Of course who want to see re-edicted messages ? But this was not totally the tru. When you cut out the authority in public to a moderator, moderator have two choices: get out or accept. Then if moderator loose his authority, everybody say what they want. Also they taking moderator posture sometimes with no gentle words and they made in public. All of this action against to a moderator It is not acceptable in any forum.

Even knowing what you tried to say when you write this:

A moderator should DELETE this kind of messages, not to write them

That means I should not make mention of any bad feeling words and also that I can re-edit to exclude these words from user's messages. To decide to exclude messages and re-edict user's messages in some cases are difficult because sometimes not all contain is bad and not all is offensive. And in my case here, which every body say what they want without any intervention, I have considered as the same way you have done when you are saying: "I'm here as a user". I can not accept in my mind that I have not the same rights that others to defend me in myself. Because all it was done in public. People sometimes do not understand that what we are writting in public give space to anyone to comment, to politicize the topic and sometimes The situation worsen further. But with all respect I can tell you: I have same rights than others. Am I wrong in this ? Especially when everything bad that happens I am the guilty and when a certain person behaves inappropriately, say nothing. this seems not fear, not right, something should be reconsidered.

I hope you Roberto and others could understand my motives and actions about my position.

Rathinagiri wrote:Pablo, what made you think everybody can write in their own language in a single thread and it can be understood by ALL concerned just by available online language tools? If there are 100 posters in a thread and all the posts are in 100 languages, how can everyone understand?

I was thinking "FREE COMMUNICATION" is to be free for everybody. Also there's not rules saying that I can not use may native language. Right ?

When I have called Marek as 'Lazy boy', that is not mistreatment. In my mind, he has made a joke with my indignation about "this matter again..." and I answered with smilies... this is nothing agresive it's like as "come on..." otherwise I could not use "boy" as treatment pronoun and it's even a loving way to deal.

Come on, what's happening here ? Are all of you judging me in everything I write without worrying about the most important and the reprehensible behavior Esgici ? If everyone can say what they want I do not have that same right ? this man has fighted with many members here, many are not more visiting us in the forum. Nobody will take care about his abuses ? I have always exposing me to denounce him ?

I'm thinking wrong if you are looking for a single culprit here. I am here first responding in defense of myself, defending my argument about the necessity of the rules in the forum and pointing out the abuses that someone committed and nobody does anything.

I am in favor of the majority of members decisions and will proceed as anyone should if you Rathi as adminsitrator decides to not include any rules at forum, even not agreeing with this last your decision. Sorry it's my personal point of view that all forums need some rules as a guideline and common sense must imperative when moderator apply an intervention. And all moderator actions in case is fails must be treated in private not in public also when any member has any differences and personal claim, should be trated in private. This is basic in rules but must be announced to be follows by everybody (including mods).

And now I would like to finish all the comments without having to return to defend myself.
I wish all of you to make focus on important subjects to solve at once and please leave me in peace.

dragancesu wrote:It is easy to make the problem more difficult to solve it

I think there is no problem, being as it is now, who will understand. Google translate and similar services are not perfect but they help, the problem is when somebody misspell a word, and then all change the meaning, but it is what it is, let's move on

I suggest that the issue is closed, and at the end of a joke

When two strangers tell jokes sweetest laugh translator

Nice ! I liked it !

In few words: I do not believe to be solved upto rathi + Roberto not decides to add rules in this forum. Others measure taken, will be more complicated and not will solve the main problem.

I will not write any new message about this topic.

Thanks to all.

And...

I'll retire myself from the forum for some time.

Is very sad to log every day, to see that most new messages are referred to problematic situations.

Oh no!